Saturday, May 7, 2011

Njal Vs Rune priests

Many of you have expressed many different views on army list, theory hammer and math hammer, but does that all work out in games? Well It’s hard to tell. Do you play a diverse amount of players, all who are good, and all who run fairly strong “net” lists? Of course not, so I am here to discuss some strengths and weaknesses between 2 units who have some contending within certain people’s lists and views.

Njal has crept up a fair bit recently. Now I will start by saying this, he is NOT point efficient. People have been saying this since the codex came out, but all of a sudden, one person (Tony, a good player none the less) has done well using him at a fairly large Tourney (Adepticon) and the internet has imploded. Let me tell you this; are those 7 games a good enough conclusion? Of course not. Do we know who he faced? Well I know of some of them, a few Orks, Nids, another wolf army and guard. Are any of these armies going to bring the best out of Njals abilities? Some of them you say? Ok, so how do we meet the balance and efficiency of his 245pt cost?

Discussion

Let’s start with his rules. 2 Powers a turn, ok cool that’s neat, but only 1 can be shooting. Seeing as 75% of the powers are shooting, this kind of nullifies his effectiveness.

His tempest abilities are nice. One of the best ones, the ability to reduce enemy shooting within 24 inches can only be used if you get Turn 1 (check the Faq). Ok so, that’s very situational for a start, so let’s go back and look at Tony’s games. We notice that he had first turn in almost all of them, so that’s beneficial from the start. Now let’s look at the real world, does this happen? No, ok so that’s solved.

Other abilities are decent, but mostly 18 inch range. This means I have no choice but to use him in an aggressive manor or face wasting his pts...brilliant. What If I want to play like proper wolves do and control midfield, not bum rush my opponents army just to get anything out of him.

What if his transport goes down and there’s nothing near to pick him up. How would that happen, you ask? Well some people need to cover a lot of the board with their armies. I for one don’t want to put 2-3 rhino squads next to Njal JUST in case his transport gets blasted off the board early on. Overall, it’s a big fat MEEH from me. Nothing special and nothing game breaking. It forces the player to use Njal and his unit in an aggressive way which in some games is stupid, great.

3 + Nullification, this is where it gets decent. This is fantastic against most of the newer armies out there. With psychic powers become very staple and common, this ability alone is a fantastic ability, but again, how many pts over a Rune priests 4+ are we paying here? Well we will come to that in a minute.

2 Wounds and basically the same stat line as a normal Rune priest...well that sucks, how is he “special”..oh yeh he has awesome “abilities” right? Yay he gets a cyber eagle, which is a chooser of the slain but gets to make a rubbish attack before combat starts. How many pts of this character has been invested into that crappy upgrade I wander? Chooser of the slain is 10pts, I assume GW made this 20 because it’s obviously twice as good...not.

Oh but wait, he has a 15 pt saga which allows me to re roll LD test nearby...awesome. Well it’s nice to have sure, but let’s now counter all these “pro’s” with logic.

Comparison

First, let’s take 2 Rune priests, 1 with chooser of the slain & a wolf tail talisman, and 1 with just a wolf tail talisman. Now this isn’t standard, but let me explain. A fair amount of psychic powers are damaging spells or target spells. This load out (which is still cheaper than Njal btw) allows me to roll a 4+ within 24 inches, followed by a 5+ to stop the targeting spell. To me, thats decent for the pts I have paid. Do I really need to spend 140pts more just to get a slightly better roll off when we all know in games you going to roll a 1 anyway. I’d rather have a re-roll (effectively).

So the 2 priests can target 2 enemy units with 2 damaging spells. This can be potentiall 2 Jaws or living lightning’s depending on how you have configured your priests. Both are above an 18 inch range like Njals tempest, do decent damage in their own way, and can be controlled. I can announce which spell I want, rather than have to roll a dice and get the crappy one I don’t need or want. Awesome, great start.

2 Priests mean I can provide two units LD 10 and have them be on different sides of the board. No need to stay within 6 inches of one another just to gain Saga of the majesty’s effects or become a pickup truck when one of their transports falls down a hole.

2 Priests mean further board control. I can cover a much larger range with their hoods. This is very big in Dawn of war. Sometimes, it’s best to flank your army rather than deploy centrally, so have 2 sides of the board covered can be very effective. If one gets de meched, you still have another. What I also mean by board control is psychological effects. Having Njal on one side of the board, and Ghazghull on the other isn’t helping much. Having 2 priests mean you can deal with Ghazghull and have the other deal with another threat. This gives your opponent a tough decision and further “no go” areas. This is of course an example and fairly situational, but none the less an advantage over Njal.

2 Priests also has some Njal will never have, a positive effect on our grey hunter squads. Not only in LD, but in combat. Both throw out 4 attacks on the charge and counter charge, boosting your unit’s damage potential. Sure It’s nothing amazing, but neither is it something to scoff at. 4 power attacks mixed with a banner, in 2 squads, makes those units even deadlier. With Njal, I only see one of those 2 units boosted, so overall not as effective.

What about the new Vindicare assassin, other wolf armies with jaws, or getting that one unit locked into combat with something you didn’t want to be. Losing that priest can prove really damaging in some games. For example, Njals squad has suffered a lot of casualties in shooting and are about to be charged by a fairly strong unit. You know they are going to die and you made a few mistakes, or a few bad rolls. This has effectively ended you priest’s role in the game. It happens, but when you have two priests, this isn’t as damaging. You may, for example, need your priest to jaws a Tervigon as your missiles just aren’t doing what they should. With 2 you are fairly likely to achieve that role.

Conclusion

Now I personally run 1 priest in my list, so i am not telling you guys to take 2 priests, but look at the difference in those points spent. I have effectively increased my armies output, redundancy and efficiency just by utilising the points I had available to me. Id personally rather get 1 priest (100pts) and a 6 man Long Fang squad with 5 Rockets (140pts) and throw those 5pts spare on some Dozer blades, than take Njal, but that’s just me. I see more efficiency in those selections than Njal.

To conclude, I leave you all with this: How many times in your games have you thought “Damn if only he was Njal” EXCEPT for when you roll a 3 to nullify a power?

Killswitch


21 comments:

Bikeninja said...
May 7, 2011 at 5:56 PM

Well I have never agreed with the "internet method of list building" anyway. Too much is put on this math hammer/theory hammer crap. If a guy plays him and builds an around his abilities he will be just as effective as your two ruinpriests. And vice versa. These multiple Ruin Priest/ Razor/ Long Fangs spam is very bland. I do not see alot of these Space Wolf armies where I play. Glad you guys do well with them. But it is just more the player than the unit.

Brad M said...
May 7, 2011 at 6:42 PM

+1 to Bikeninja.

I can give a further example. Killswitch loves thunderwolves, but Adam wouldn't take them in a pink fit. But both are sucessfull wolf players.

If someone has written a sucessfull list that you don't agree with, it doesn't make them wrong. Nor does it make you wrong.

The main problem with mathhammer is that it doesn't take into account individual player style. Obviously someone has found a way to make Njal work. Applaud it! Don't carry on about how you don't agree with it.

After all, anyone can spam hunters and fangs, and this may very well be the secret. Something new thrown into the mix might confuse the enemy just enough for the win.

:) (added a smiley face so my rant seemed a bit less... um... ranty?)

Anonymous said...
May 7, 2011 at 7:33 PM

I have never considered Njal after the FAQ. Two rune priests tops one Njal any day of the week. Yes Razor/GH/Long fang spam is bland, but there is still plenty of variation even in those lists and thats what makes it fun.

Marshal Wilhelm said...
May 7, 2011 at 7:46 PM

Both +1 and -1 to Bikeninja and Brad M, lol.

Ultimately, if guys are winning with lists the internet says is bad, and beating good opponents, then that is brilliant.

However, I don't think you can compare X [Runepriests] and Y [Njal] and say X isn't better if mathhammer clearly says it is better.

A machine gun is better than a pistol.

But also, if someone can overcome the weaknesses of the pistol and the strengths of the machine gun, then the pistol wins. Which I think is more to do with *tactical nous* than the pistol being better.

GC08, from the B&C, runs a Marine Scout list very well. By his own admission, it is not top tier. Yet he wins a lot. Okay list+great general+opponent ignorance and/or arrogance = okay->good->very good on the table.

Blandness doesn't mean something is effective or not. That is letting likes get in the way of effectiveness. If you prefer to not be 'bland' cool. But don't confuse 'coolness' with effectiveness :)

I cannot say a Typhoon or Rifledread outshoots a Missile Fang pack. Mathhammer says no. But, as you've said, it cannot take into account all things, and so those units can remain mobile and not get caught of like the Fangs do.

Fresh things have an unknown element that does catch people out. That is why, imo, Fritz and his jetbike Eldar were 'so amazing' a few years ago, because dudes didn't know how to deal with it. But I don't see them pwning tournaments nowadays, so they can't actually be as good as they seemed. They were fresh and new, and that is what gave them success.

So I both agree and disagree with you two, lol.

Adam said...
May 8, 2011 at 2:18 AM

Well, you're all wrong! (joke)

Ease Of Use will often win out over Micromanagement.

So by having the best all round force with the best value for your points, you create an army that's forgiving and easy to use...relatively speaking. This is Ease Of Use.

Alternatively, you can heavily customise an army and pour lots of points into a special killy unit or combination. However, this takes placement and timing to pull off effectively. This is Micromanagement.

While the latter can be a strong game winning strategy in the right circumstances, the forgiving army will often stand a better chance in All circumstances.

A good example is my Space Wolves VS Peter's Blood Angels at the GT.

If he didn't get the first turn he'd have a really tough time. But because he did and his army was optimised for it, his force was more competitive in this situation.

Meanwhile my force was able to defend, attack or run and hide as it needed to due to being a forgiving, all round force.

Bringing this thread back on track...

I've played Njal a couple of times now and while he can be awesome in the right circumstances, he's a lot of points and to get the very best out of him, he needs a lot of Micromanagement. Otherwise his passive power doesn't always get used...then he's just a Rune Priest that casts 2 psychic powers per turn and has a 3+ dispel. Totally not worth the points.

I really should write a tactica to explain how to use him correctly.

Dylan said...
May 8, 2011 at 4:47 AM

yes tactica would be great on all special characters if times wills it ^^

TitanMk1 said...
May 8, 2011 at 9:53 AM

I have to say points for points Njal is a poor choice for a space wolf army (my opinion!). Alex nailed it on the head pretty well with all the salient points about his pro's and cons.

Yes he is a nice model etc, but in competative play he gets put to one side very quickly. Yes they guy who did decent at Adepticon had him in his list.....this just further embeds my belief that Adepticon is nowhere near the competative level as over here (UK)is...but anyway :) This is just typical net "wow" factor and will blow over in a few months i bet.

I would much rather just take 2 priests for all the reasons Alex said, but primarly...2 decent models give more flexibilty than 1 slighlty better one.

{hil said...
May 8, 2011 at 10:26 AM

I run Njal along with Logan in my Termi Amry, its done some pretty funny and wide spread damage to Orks, IG, Tau and CSM. Tho when ive taken Njal in a GH army along with rhino's, he loss's some grace, wheres as i can throw my RP's in with my hunter and teams and play god for abit. tho my GH armies tend to die pretty fast lol, thats for sure.

Phil said...
May 8, 2011 at 10:28 AM

Woh, bad spelling from me there, gah 1am when im writing this ;(

Anonymous said...
May 8, 2011 at 12:34 PM

i run 3 rune priests. so no. i will stick to my list tqvm. :)

HOTpanda said...
May 8, 2011 at 5:20 PM

I have to say other then the epic cats battling it out the post falls extremely short on a fair comparison of Njal vs 2xRune Priest. Your article is 100% biases towards the Rune Priests and failed to fully examine the pros and cons of each. Passing judgement on his tempest abilities that cannot be used on turn one 50% of the time clearly showed this. What about the rest of his abilities? What armies do the two perform best against.

Anonymous said...
May 9, 2011 at 1:34 AM

My opinion: he can be pretty devastating against T3 5+ armies, not against other armies

Anonymous said...
May 9, 2011 at 2:26 AM

Change of perspective.

Njal - 245pts

VS

Rune Priest - 100
Master - 50
Runic A - 20
Wolftooth - 10
Chooser - 10
Saga of Majesty - 15 (which rune p can't have normally)
= 205pts

so for 40 more points you get:

+1 to nullify
+1 attack
+D3 S3 at I5
oh and that silly free power per turn thing.

I agree that in competitive tournament play, redundancy and flexibility is what wins games. I whole heartedly agree with Adam that to use Njal successfully you need expert management and that running 2 rune priests is more advantageous.
What I don't agree with is that Njal is not worth his points. I feel he is very much worth his salt.
One aspect you failed to mention in your article is your opponents reaction. Njal has been known to effect enemy deployment, movement, even what assets an opponent will use to kill him. I'm not saying he's a bullet magnet because he's kind of fragile. What I am saying is he can control what your opponent does, and doing that is the first step to victory. Just ask a Tau player how he feels about -1BS in a 24" radius, ask a Demon player if he likes deep striking his army into difficult and dangerous.

So my hat is off to this Tony player, winner of Adepticon. Not relying on 3 Jaws priest spam to win(that was directed at anon, not you killswitch)

:)
also added to quell rant.

Adam said...
May 9, 2011 at 3:27 AM

2 things:

1) I played a couple of games with Njal the other week. I'm yet to write a post about it. But truthfully, he's really not worth his points because he drags your whole army into close range, just like Blood Claws and big units of Thunderwolves do. Bad tactics imho.

More on this when I get a moment...

2) See earlier posts about Tony's win at Adepticon. Fair play to the guy, he won it, but resistance for him wasn't particularly fierce. In fact, the army he faced in the final round was DREADFUL.

Kodiak said...
May 9, 2011 at 9:22 AM

I love Njal for what he represent but I have to say that yes he is a cost drain for being a single priest. Although sometime its when people have less stuff to move around that they will play better.


Points Compare:

Njal in Terminator
270pts

Land Raider Crusader
250pts

8x Wolf Guard in Terminator
264pts

2x Dreadnought
1x Iron Priest
260pts


What I would like to to know is if his points are worth what he represent compare to other units in the Codex. That and how he fair when facing them alone on the reverse side of things... Kinda what they used to do with Ghazghkull VS Commisar Yarrick one-on-one...

Is he truly fragile or can he hold is ground? I mean can he truly survive alone when in face of 4x Meganobz in a Battlewagon...

Must he always be in the lead of a group to worth the points cost that he represent?

Would you take Njal at 270pts or Bjorn which also stand at 270pts.

:) Just a few question from some fans of the blog sitting at work !!! Take Care and keep those blog rolling.

Noveltyboy said...
May 9, 2011 at 11:56 AM

I built a TOFG army around Njal mainly because I love the Terminator model and I liked his rules. He IS over priced even with his nifty abilities hes only 5 points less than Grimnar and we know who would win that fight in terms of overall effect on the army and game. It comes down to fluff over function. I like my list as its in keeping with Bjorn Stormwolf's company theme and my games are always fun and close as my army is not built to win its built to be a challenge to play with and against. Good write up though its nice to see some practical comments rather than "i hate this model/rule so dont use it"

Matt said...
May 9, 2011 at 11:31 PM

All I am going to say is compare him to tiguris

Tiguris:
3 powers per turn
3+ save
similar stats
Gift of Prescience
Knows all psychic powers
230pts

Njal:
Uses 2 powers per turn
2+/5++ v psychic attacks
CotS (+ D3 S3 I5 attacks in CC)
3+ Nullify on psychic powers with in 24inches
Always hits on 3+
Units with in 6" allowed to reroll morale
Wounds deamons on a 2+
Also force weapon
Lord of Tempests ability
Last but not least all the special rules for spacewolves
245pts

Now which is a better option, I understand that 2 RP's are better in efficiency but I like Njal brings to the table and love the knowledge that he is better than the smurfs at what he does for just 15pts more...

/end rant
/Smiley face :)

HOTpanda said...
May 10, 2011 at 4:00 PM

One of Njal's biggest strengths lies with his knowledge of all the psychic powers as opposed to the runes mer two. This means he has the right psychic tool for the job and never has to regret what powers he chose like that of a rune priest.

Anonymous said...
May 10, 2011 at 9:50 PM

I love these articles. Great to see some good debating.

Revanus said...
May 11, 2011 at 2:58 PM

+1 to HOTpanda

I wouldn't run Njal in place of 2 rune priests. I would, however, run him instead of running 3 rune priests, assuming I wanted to go the caster route.

I think Njal has a few major benefits.

Flexibility: He knows all the powers. Which means you can aim for turn 1 and Tempest if facing a demon army, murderous hurricane some trueborn, incubi, terminators, or the occasional hero to keep an assault at bay (or give yourself the initiative if they assault anyway), toss a jaws at the mycetic spore that just landed in your face, etc. Rather than take a third priest who gives a bit of redundancy and extra shooting but is still limited, I think the double power and open toolbox allows you to deal with a random army better.

Lord of Tempests--Is it variable? Yes. But it contains some really nice shooting attacks (D3 S9, d6 S8 Ap 5, etc.). They come at close range, but then again, by turn 4-7 (when the turn counter will be guaranteeing the low range, high damage results), a lot of stuff tends to be within 18/12 inches of one of my rune priests, anyway--or could safely be, if I'm lucky enough to have a choice. He also gets some useful mid-range (24 inch) nuisance effects (-1 BS, infantry DT, etc.). These are in addition to his usual powers.

2 Powers a turn--Granted only one can shoot. But, given Lord of Tempests, there may be turns where he gets to shoot twice in a turn. At worst, his unit and anything nearby will have a perpetual 5+ cover save. Toss him in a rhino, and your opponent might choose to shoot something that doesn't have cover. Or even better--extend his cover to other mechanized units, possibly as you move up towards mid-field. Or keep those nasty vendettas, skimmers, jetbikes, etc at bay with some tempest.

Conclusion--I don't think Njal wins in value if the other option is 2 rune priests, as Killswitch eloquently laid out. But Njal adds a heightened level of unpredictability and situational oomph to a list. Maybe you're playing dawn of war--your missiles and lascannons failed you, you've got a webway portal and a whole host of baddies 15 inches from Njal's rhino, and you just rolled d6 St8 AP5 attacks for all unengaged enemy units within 12 inches of Njal at the end of his shooting phase. Maybe your enemy keeps a few units slighly out of 24/18/12 inch range for a turn or two because he's afraid of Njal's effects, especially as the game grows late and storm rolls get higher and higher. Maybe he forces them into close combat so they don't count as unengaged--setting up a perfect time to slam them with murderous hurricane. To me, the added unpredictability and potential for frazzling your opponent is better than being able to cast an extra shooting spell.

Personally, I find myself in a bigger need for an effective counter against large units of power weapons than extra shooting power. Njal doesn't do that. Hence, I only run 2 rune priests, and fill the gap with dreads or storm shield TWC.

Cheers,
Rev

Revanus said...
May 11, 2011 at 2:59 PM

Decent option for 2K:

1x Rune Priest w/ Jaws, Living Lightning 100
1x Njal 245
1x Dread TL Auto, ccw 115
1 x3 Wolf Guard (Combi Melta, Powerfist) 129
2 x 6 Grey Hunters (Rhino, Wolfen, Melta,
Standard) (155 x 2) 310
1 x 5 Grey Hunters (LasPlas,Flame,) 150
1 x 5 Long Fang (LasPlas Razorback, 4 Missile) 190
1 x 5 Long Fang (LasPlas Razorback, 4 Missile) 190
1 x5 Long Fang (4 missiles) 115
1 x 3 Thunderwolves (3 shield, 1 PF, 1 Melta ) 275
2x 1 Landspeeder (2 Typhoon/Flamer) 180

Total: 1999

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