Sorry about the lateness of this post and my lack of conversation on last weeks battle report but after it went up my laptop blew out it's motherboard!
So after 9 tournament games (and countless practise/friendly) with the same list, it's time for me to de-construct the list and rebuild it so it's Harder, Better, Faster, & Stronger.
So I'm going to go through list my original army list out and go though how each unit performed and then a summary at the end along with a new list.
So I'm going to go through list my original army list out and go though how each unit performed and then a summary at the end along with a new list.
HQ's:
Rune Priest, Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane, Chooser of the Slain
Rune Priest, Living Lightning, Jaws of the World Wolf.
In all the games only ever one or the other Rune Priest ever performed well. Powers wise I only ever used Living lightning and occasionally Jaws of the World Wolf, and that was only twice and even then the Rune Priest died the following turn - but he did always bag a big target (Old Zogwart and a Tervigon). I think I can just get away with the 1 Rune Priest as combat wise they where generally no better than a Grey Hunter with a power weapon. They performed best vs enemy psykers, minimising the impact of Librarians, shutting out multiple Catalyst powers vs Tyranids and just being a grade A pain in the arse against Grey Knights!
Elites
5 Wolf Scouts, Melta Gun
5 Wolf Scouts, Melta Gun
With the one exception against Tyranids the Wolf Scouts always made for a royal pain in the arse against everyone, and where one unit failed the second picked up the slack (I firmly believe in taking 2 or none at all). They make player's castle up around fire bases, they won me a few games by just spanking scoring units left at the back of the board, they help the Wolf Guard power fist into place to kill Characters, and can hijack the razorbacks vs deep strike armies.
3 Wolf Guard: 2 armed with a power fist and a combi melta each, 1 with a combi melta and a bolt pistol
I need more. I need more power fists/weapons etc. The flexibility of placing the Wolf Guard where I like was always handy - and the power fist more so.
Troops
10 Grey hunters, 2 Melta Guns, Wolf Banner, Mark of the Wulfen
Rhino
10 Grey hunters, 2 Melta Guns, Wolf Banner, Mark of the Wulfen
Rhino
5 Grey Hunters, 1 Melta Gun
Rhino
6 Grey Hunters, 1 Flamer
Rhino
I need a dedicated scoring unit. Having so much potential killing power waiting to be unleashed in only 4 units meant that I struggled to contest and fight over multiple objectives. As for the 10 man squads it's nice to have the 2 melta guns, but generally they would fire once and then either hit the target or the contents in assault. So I am no longer obsessing over having 10 men and double melta over a unit of 9 & a Wolf Guard isn't a biggy for me any more as I always need the that "hidden" power fist more. Having the power fist lets me take on more targets, deal with characters, and combined with the banner will be great.
Fast Attack
Land Speeder Tornado, Multi Melta, Heavy flamer
Land Speeder Tornado, Multi Melta, Heavy flamer
Land Speeder Tornado, Multi Melta, Heavy flamer
Nothing wrong with these guys - I just got to learn to use them better. I was debating on if I should drop the heavy flamers, but in hindsight having a second gun makes it more flexible and able to deal with anything that pops out of what it shot.
Heavy Support
5 Long Fangs, 4 Missile Launchers
Razorback, Lascannon, Twin linked Plasma gun
5 Long Fangs, 4 Missile Launchers
Razorback, Lascannon, Twin linked Plasma gun
Right I'm going to be honest here and say....
The Las/plas-backs sucked. With only two they where shooting target 1 and 2. For 150 points I would rather have a 3rd unit of Long Fangs to pick up the slack should the other 2 fail (which they did in 2 games). In fact for 150 points I can get another 5 man, 4 missile unit and have change for more Grey Hunters and Wolf Guard. The power of the Las/plas-back is in numbers, and 2 is no where enough, in fact I reckon it's a all or nothing choice (I'm sure many people disagree)
The 'power' of this army over the two tournaments was it's balance, and how every unit was a equal threat, and the Las/plas-backs stuck out as a easy armour 11 thumb to shoot at.
So to recap:
I can get away with 1 Rune Priest,
I need a dedicated scoring unit,
More Wolf Guard!
Las/plas-backs are good but only if that's all you're using (spamming).
So what has my army list evolved into now?
HQ:
Rune Priest, Living Lightning, Jaws of the World Wolf, melta bombs, wolf tail talisman = 110
Elites:
5 Wolf Scouts, melta gun = 85
5 Wolf Scouts, melta gun = 85
5 Wolf Guard, all with power fists and combi meltas = 215
Troops:
8 Grey Hunters, Wolf Banner, Wulfen, Melta Gun = 150 (Rune Priest rides with these guys)
Rhino = 35
9 Grey Hunters, Wolf Banner, Wulfen, Melta Gun = 165
Rhino = 35
9 Grey Hunters, Wolf Banner, Wulfen, Melta Gun = 165
Rhino = 35
5 Grey Hunters, Flamer = 75
Razorback, Twin-linked Heavy Bolters = 40
Fast Attack:
Land Speeder, Multi Melta, Heavy Flamer = 70
Land Speeder, Multi Melta, Heavy Flamer = 70
Land Speeder, Multi Melta, Heavy Flamer = 70
Heavy Support:
5 Long fangs, 4 missile launchers = 115
5 Long fangs, 4 missile launchers = 115
5 Long fangs, 4 missile launchers = 115
This is how my regenerated list rolls at the moment, pretty much as before - but more efficient across the board. In test games so far they have done well (and badly). Having the wolf guard with power fists in the Grey Hunter units has definitely given them the boost they needed vs the big stuff!
Having the 3 units of Long Fangs is a god send! Against light armour or MSU I can split fire up to 6 times, and vs the bigger, tougher stuff the concentrated fire makes a difference.
Against my friend's Chaos Marines they have struggled (mass plague marines) so at the moment I am considering dropping my favourite units the Wolf Scouts for another unit of Grey Hunters with plasma guns to help cut through really hard stuff like Plague Marines and Terminators at range and with rapid fire when they get too close. But on the other hand the Scouts keep fire base units occupied as the Grey Hunters close in.
What do you readers think???
26 comments:
May 13, 2011 at 3:26 PM
@Wolfscouts: try to give them meltabombs, when they miss the hit with melta - you can charge multiple tanks.
May 13, 2011 at 3:30 PM
Melta bombs on wolf scouts cost way too much IMO 5 points per model is a bit steep and must be taken by all the scouts! (unlike wolf guard).
For 25 points on a unit of 5 I would rather by more scouts! (if the list had the points).
Sometimes the best upgrade for a model is another model to stand next to him.
May 13, 2011 at 3:43 PM
So a few things..
1)You mentioned in hindsight of dropping the heavy flamers on the speeders that they were of good use getting at the(unit)inside. Can you shoot at a seperate unit if a vehicle has 2 defferent wepomds? I always thought all weapons are shat simultanious at one target?(the difference being a rhino shooting at something other than what its crew shot)
2)SOMEONE whow finally agrees with me that Las/plas Razors SUCK!!!! 1 shot las non twin linked is fustration in the waiting & by the time you get in close enough to use the plasma your most likely wrecked or destroyed.
3)I strongly beleve that fangs should ALWAYS be at max, 4 missles isnt enough to split fire with. now my advice, drop the 3rd unit & for rhe same ponts(& purpose)add 2 cyclone welding termies(1 in each)to the other two fangs not only does it give you the same 2 shots bud know the unit has 2+AS "body guard" & still have 19points left over (you have to max out the other 2 units to 5ml's)
May 13, 2011 at 3:49 PM
How is he going to add two Cyclone Wolf Guard by dropping 115 pts worth of Long Fangs? Wolf Guard + TDA + Cyclone = 68 pts x 2 = 136.
And that's not counting the extra Wolf Guard to take the unit to 10 men so you are actually allowed to take 2 Cyclones.
May 13, 2011 at 4:07 PM
WeeDawgNYC:
On the land speeders -
I meant in the turns after popping open the transport, or in combo - one pops it open, the 2nd one lets loose with its flamer.
As for the Long Fangs -
Long Fangs are a high priority unit to kill for the enemy so why make it a bigger target? The way *I* like to play is not to have any particular unit to be a primary target - when each unit is a equal threat what do you kill first? (well that's my theory)
As for Las-plas-backs -
I understand why they *are good* but only having 2 is not enough, spam it to hell if you want them IMO.
May 13, 2011 at 4:09 PM
seems like both our maths are incorrect it is actually 126pts for 2.
Also why the wt. talisman on the priest if youu already have a 4+ to null from the runic weapon. you cant attempt to null twice can you?
May 13, 2011 at 4:26 PM
Meh. Either way dude I still don't see how you worked out you can get two Cyclone Wolf Guard for the price of a 115 points unit
MC Tic Tac:- List 2 is looking solid mate the only thing I don't like is the Heavy Bolters on the Razorback but that is personal preference only and I can't see it making much difference.
I've recently started using Speeders instead of scouts. It took me while to learn to use them right but they are really effective, not just for tank hunting but for blocking tactics too. I love em!
May 13, 2011 at 4:32 PM
The 5+ from the Wolf Tail Tailsman is a "save" not a Runic Weapon or Psychic hood attempt at nullification, and it is not even counted as a armour save so say he was hit by a power such as Soul Storm it would go:
Runic Weapon > Wolf Tail Talisman > Armour/Invulnerable/Cover saves > Take wounds.
Or if you prefer my real answer:
I had 5 points left over.
May 13, 2011 at 4:35 PM
Brad:
Well for the Scouts vs Land Speeders debate, I reckon...
Why not have both? Nothing can hide from the Wolves then!
I have used the Speeders for blocking before, and its fun/annoying when done right.
As for the Razorback if I had the points to upgrade it to.... well anything else, but for 5 points a twin linked heavy bolter is better than a storm bolter!
May 13, 2011 at 4:47 PM
looks very solid and well balanced for its type of army indeed. There could be made some changes, but it would be a question of how you play.
Only small thing i woulg change: Drop the 2 wulfen from the GH units, and use the 30 points to strenghten your Wolf Scouts by adding 1 more to each unit. With maxed out GH units they are already strong, Fist and all, and the scouts would be more survivable, wich is needed due to their "low" 4+ save.
May 13, 2011 at 5:59 PM
Couple of thoughts:
1) I need to make shorter posts.
2) This list cannot fight armor saves of 2+. The only options you have are to be in close enough to fire melta, meaning you'll be in proximity to take a charge (I'm thinking Grey Knight Terminators, but even regular terminators will be bad with their power weapons), take the occasional potshot from a speeder, or hope you can overwhelm the 2+ saves with massed missiles.
3) This list cannot fight armor of 14, except by suiciding a speeder or two or bringing troops close.
4) This list has no effective counter to power-weapon wielding infantry.
I run between 3 and 4 lasplas razorbacks, usually. When the lascannons miss (happens to me fairly frequently) it's frustrating. However, I would never leave home without my lasplas--they give me the ability to punch AV 14 from across the table, and they murder MEQ and termis who get too close. The twin-linked plasma is also surprisingly effective and killing vehicles from 24 inches or closer--i.e. outflanking vehicles
I like speeders--I run 2 typhoons with HFlamer. Lets me approximate the output of a fourth long fang squad, and the flamer comes in handy more often than not.
Conclusion--I think the lack of AV 14 and 2+ penetrating power is a major flaw of this list. This could quickly be fixed by shrinking the troop sizes.
I use 14 fewer grey hunters. At 1750, I have a list that can pump out 16 St 8 AP 3 shots, along with 4 Lascannon and 4 Plasma guns from my razorbacks, 2 rune priests, and 280 open points. That's 22 shots of 48 range that can burst Armor 11/12 without much trouble-- 4 of which are st9 shots for giving me a chance at the heavy stuff.
For perspective, I can run thunderwolves and still put out 8 more 48" shots of st8 or higher than your list--4 of which can kill termis or armor 14. If I run dreads, I can add as many as 8 more 48" st7 TL shots, or swap 2-4 of those shots to add a TL lascannon, a plas cannon, or some CCW oomph. And I'll still have 30 points left to upgrade two longfangs to lascannons.
May 13, 2011 at 6:46 PM
I have just tweaked my list from a tourney and was surprised at how much more I could get out of it.
Now 1 Priest is enough for 1500 pts, but you did say the two gave you flexibility and coverage against Psy-powers. You might notice that when it is gone. I am not saying you cannot getting better value elsewhere, just that you'll notice it.
I agree with you on the Scouts. One is none. Also, I feel the biggest plus in their arsenal is "threat" or "fear". I think on the table, Tornados are better, but you need a good amount of Mech to draw fire away from them.
I also agree with you on the "Home Guard" unit. If you don't have an el cheapo unit to hold your Objective, you are spending twice the points on a killier unit that does nothing. The BolterBack is fine. Shoot with it last, after all the other guns.
I like using my Tornados as a buddy for my squads. It MELTAS them and the squad assaults them or vice versa.
May 13, 2011 at 8:22 PM
The 5+ from the Wolf Tail Tailsman is a "save" not a Runic Weapon or Psychic hood attempt at nullification, and it is not even counted as a armour save so say he was hit by a power such as Soul Storm it would go:
Runic Weapon > Wolf Tail Talisman > Armour/Invulnerable/Cover saves > Take wounds.
----------------------------------
REALLY! where can I get more info on this? I need to relook this as i having a hard time understanding how more than 1 "save" could be possible. thanks
May 13, 2011 at 10:54 PM
WeeDawg:
The Priest rolls if a psy test is passed within 24" of him.
The Talisman rolls if a his unit is affected by a spell.
They have different triggers, and so are both allowed.
FNP is really a second save after an armour save too.
+++
Tictac:
Keep the HF on the Speeders!
• If a weapon destroyed happens, you still have something that can do killing, and isn't relegated to move-blocking, giving cover and contesting Objectives.
• Pathfinders, Kroot and other things with rubbish saves are actually very annoying to get out of cover, even if you assault them with superior troops. The HF is removing them on 2s.
• HFs mightn't be contributing every single turn, but they can hurt 'big' all in one turn. I have killed 14 Ork Ard Boyz _140pts_ with a single *whoosh*
• MMs are actually quite bad once AV , t4 2 wounders and 2+ save things are gone. The HF makes the unit flexible.
• You can tank shock with a Rhino, condense a unit, and then roast a lot of grunts all in one hit. Being able to cut through fodder stops your units from getting out of their transports [which keeps them tougher] and get through lots of cheap stuff quickly - Bolters are nice, but not getting shot at by 60 las guns is also nice ;)
May 14, 2011 at 2:11 AM
+1 to Revanus. I agree that your list has a glaring weakness or inability to deal with +2 saves (terminators) and heavy army reliably.
However I personally think space wolves have a hard time massing ap2 weapon, throughout their entire army, in terms of cost effectiveness.
I also feel that your Grey Hunter squads are not taking advantage of their ability to field a power based weapon. Having a Wulfen, a Wolf Guard totting Powerfist/Chainfist and a thrid power weapon is a huge advantage. The majority of space marine armies except Grey Knights can have multiple power based weapons. This ability gives the units considerable bit in close combat. A unit of plague marines would avoid such unit as their feel no pain is quickly reduced to nothing.
May 14, 2011 at 3:07 AM
I don't understand your point here that two razorbacks is just not worth it? Tell me, do you have 3 different deployments mostly in this game? Well i do when i play. That is Pitched, Spearhead and finally Dawn of war.
With Dawn of war you have 3 units of long fangs who has to walk onto the table and wont fire one single shot that turn. Not only wont they fire they will also not be in position most likely. So i am not saying that the Razorback is better but they do atleast fire shots when they come onto the board in 1/3 of the games. On top of this they can move onto the board while not leaving your Long fangs in the open ready to be shot at.
Don't get me wrong here i love long fangs, but grabbing 3x5 insteed of 2x5 and 2 razorbacks is not really that great in my opinion but hey we all think differently.
May 14, 2011 at 4:59 AM
I'd say the More Long Fangs Vs LF's and Razorbacks debate could go on forever as there are arguements for both sides.
I am in the Razorback Camp. I used to run three LF packs but I now find the extra utility of a Razorback priceless.
I have a small Grey Hunter pack with a flamer in my list that costs 75 Points to act as my scoring unit. This unit can Hijack a ride when the transports have done dumping the LF's into a good fire position and either sit in the tank or if need be support the main assault force.
May 14, 2011 at 8:41 AM
Revanus:
Las cannons are not a great answer for AV14.
Tau, via Railguns, are way better shooters of AV 14.
bs4 LC - 3.7% chance of destroying a LR
bs3 tlRG - 14.58% chance.
And Tau still don't shoot LR off the table.
They have to move-block them with Piranhas.
bs4 MM, within MELTA range - 20.99%
LC on Fangs are over-priced.
I see what you are saying, I just think LC are not going to fix that issue.
But I do see that whilst sv2+ on t4 models is not a terrible thing, as you can put massed bolters, etc. into them and they will fall, when you try that on t6 things, it doesn't work so well.
List building is a juggling act, for sure.
Thoughts?
May 14, 2011 at 10:03 AM
It so is mate. well said.
Many a times you change and the whole thing just tumbles like a house of cards.
I dont think las cannons are overpriced just that rockets are underpriced :D
Scouts and speeders could be pretty good. normally its one or the other but if you can find the points for both then why not?
I do love the scouts tho - I would suggest a little bit of wulfen in the squads tho :D
That an awful lot of GH in your new list. They can act like mini hammer units but some armies will just laugh at them. Close combat is just deadlier and I think that you might want to add some lone wolves to supplement the GH - dont know what you would drop tho. thats the juggling act thing all over again.
May 14, 2011 at 2:00 PM
How about dropping one landspeeder to upgrade the razorback with a TLLC and to give one of the LF packs a lascannon as well?
May 14, 2011 at 4:55 PM
First, I have to make a slight correction. As it turns out, my list with the 280 point flex only has 1 rune priest. My double rune priest list is slightly less complete--it only has three lasplas instead of 4, and one of them is attached to a 5 man grey hunter squad with a flamer. It also only has 275 points of flex. It can fill out well with two decked-out dreads, or I can swallow the loss of a lasplas and run TWC. At 1850, these problems disappear.
Now for the lascannon discussion.
First off, I'd like to thank Marshall Wilhelm and praise his mathhammer. I've been curious about the effectiveness of multi-meltas, and I may consider docking one of my typhoon back down to an MM/Hflame tornado, and comparing my effectiveness.
Lascannons are not a great answer for AV 14. I've seen that in practice. But, by running at least 3 lasplas (usually 4) I always have at least a few shots in a turn where I can roll the dice and hope for results. It's been a while since I've done probability, but I think the odds of getting a wreck or explosion from three lascannon shots on AV14 is 3.7% x 3= 11.1%.. Basically, assuming I remember my AP statistics, for every additional lascannon, your chance of getting a wreck or explosion goes up by 3.7%, per firing turn. It's not great, but its not horrible, and its one of the only solutions I have given my limited wolfy toolbox.
At the same time, a lascannon is versatile. Penetrating or glancing AP 14 is just one of the things a lascannon can be used for, and for me, the razorback lasplas helps give me the operational flexibility to face down a lot of threats at a fairly cheap point cost.
As an anecdotal example, I played a 2500 point game on tuesday against a necron player. I had 4 lasplas razorbacks in the mix, along with a couple of lascannons spread out amongst my longfangs. My first turn, my lascannons and missiles didn't even scatch his monolith's paint. In the second turn, I got a penetration and an explosion from my second lasplas shot. With Tic Tac's list, such a result wouldn't have been an option.
Ultimately, I guess my only point is that I think Tic Tac's list too troop heavy and he's not getting balanced value. Grey hunters are good about taking out standard, non-pw infantry. They're so good at it that I'm able to make do with 6 man squads. But a 9-man grey hunter squad is no better than a 6 man grey hunter squad at taking down a monolith.
Thoughts?
Best,
Rev
May 15, 2011 at 6:39 AM
I have enjoyed this post and it made me go and review my own list which had grown a little stale. My revised 1500 pts list looks like this:
HQ
Runepriest (JOTWW/LL) Joins a Greyhunter Squad
Runepriest with Meltabombs(JOTWW/MH) Joins a Greyhunter Squad
Elite 1
5 x WG:
2 without upgrades (wound allocation for LFs)
2 x PF/combi-melta (go with GH 1 and 2)
1 x TDA, CML and combi-melta
Elites 2 and 3
Lonewolf with TDA, chainfist, stormshield and two Fenrisian wolves
Greyhunters 1 and 2
6 x GH, Meltagun, Wolf Standard, MOTW, Rhino
Greyhunter 3
10 x GH, 2 x Meltagun, Wolf Standard, MOTW, power weapon, Rhino
Heavy 1 and 2
4 x LF with 2 rocket launchers and a lascannon
Heavy 3
4 x LF with 3 rocket launchers and a Razorback with TLLC
May 16, 2011 at 4:41 AM
@Revanus,
That's close, but not actualy how stats, works, else if you fired 50 hits you would HAVE to score a hit, which simply isn't true. To work out the chance of 3 lascannons hitting their target you need to instead work out the chance of 3 missing with 3 lascannons, missing with one is 1-0.037=0.963, so missing with 3 is 0.963*0.963*0.963= 0.893, so converting that back to a chance to hit give 1-0.893=0.107 or 10.7% chance to hit.
It doesn't make much difference in this acse, but it can make a large difference.
May 16, 2011 at 6:20 PM
Happydude333:
You legend!
I would go through a much more painful process:
Hit1 + Miss1xHit2 + Miss2xHit3, etc.
It gets the same result, but is a real monkey to type and even enter into your calculator/keyboard and not make any mistake!
You have saved me hours of work. :D
*passes a steaming plate of elk*
May 18, 2011 at 7:25 AM
Thanks for all the comments guys. Sorry I haven't posted back sooner, but lack of laptop does that to a man :/
Many issues and questions to address so in a no particular order:
Lack of AP2:
Having tried this list vs 2 GK Paladin heavy armies, it wasn't that much of a issue actually! Mass bolter fire or Combat damage did the trick.
Elites:
I love the scouts, but 5 man with melta & Wolf Guard is the most efficent combo IMO. I not too impressed by Lone Wolves (I'm sure Adam disagrees).
Sometimes the best upgrade to buy a model is another model to stand next to him - SW are a prime example of this - I would personally have another scout in than a Wulfen, while the rending and potential high attacks are nice, its kind of wasted on a such a small unit and agaisnt the kind of targets they pick on.
As for Power weapons in the Grey Hunters see Adams linked article to the right of the page :)
As ever I'm play testing, testing, and testing!
May 19, 2011 at 4:26 AM
I was thinking of the ap2 more for dealing with t6 Monsters.
I know you can torrent t4 sv2+ with bolters and volume of attacks. It's when the effectiveness drops to a third that it gets a poorer return, not to mention you have to take of all the wounds before the effect of any of them comes good!
I know you cannot build a list that does everything perfectly, and JotWW goes someway to fixing that.
Just sayin'
;)
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