Hey guys, Killswitch here. So I got speaking with a friend Alex West, captain of England’s ETC team. He was thinking of starting a new 1750pt army which is slightly different to the norm and got me thinking, what could you do with the codex that is effective, yet different? Well if I’m perfectly honest, it isn’t easy.
Analysis
What Alex. W asked was a possibility to make an effective, yet fun list which was based around Sky Claws, Swift Claws or Thunderwolves. Looking at these fast attack choices, we all know that the most effective choice is Thunder wolves, but that’s not really “different” is it?
I then looked at sky claws. They just aren’t like Blood angel jumpers. They aren’t scoring, can’t take reliable anti-tank (BS3) and no FNP or FC which make jumpers effective. What they do get is berserk charge. Is this useful? In my personal opinion, no. Why? Well their low WS & BS is the first major problem, but hey, its not that bad right? Well unfortunately to make the unit remotely effective, you need a fairly large squad size (8-10). Comparing these to other Assault squads such as BA’s & SM’s, they can only take 1 meltagun and don’t have access to a 2 attack base sergeant unless you take a wolf guard (which isn’t cheap once you stick a Jump pack on). They can take Mark of the wulfen, but with no banner to re roll one’s like Grey hunters, or an effective way of reaching their target without losing their effectiveness (no FNP like BA assault marines) they are fairly…standard.
So after coming to the conclusion that sky claws..well..suck, I decided to look at Swift Claws. These bikers come at the same cost as their SM equivalent brothers, but also come with WS3 & BS3. Now most people tend to disregard these due to that alone, similar to the Sky Claws. I however decided to look slightly deeper. They are Toughness 5 making them fairly more survivable against small arms firepower than Sky Claws. The unit can take Melta bombs giving them a fairly decent role when performing a multi-charge against a fairly static Gun-line *Cough* Guard *Cough*. Next we have an option for an Attack bike. 50pts with a Multi-melta is 10pts cheaper than other codex’s which have this option, but this is due to the lower BS. This mixed with a Meltagun (only 1 available to take which is kind of lame) gives the unit some much needed melta support. They can also take either a Power weapon or a Fist. With Beserk charge, on the charge the number of attacks are faily good (3 fist attacks or 4 p.wep attacks) but when charged they are fairly poor, if you get your counter attack off it isn’t too bad.
So after analysing the unit, I found that to make an effective, multi-pupose squad of Swift Claws, I would need to do a fair bit of investment. I decided they would be the best choice for Alex’s approach, so went about looking through the codex on how to make this unit effective in a 1750 list. I started looking at a Wolf guard. 53pts with a Bike with no wargear makes them VERY expensive, so I quickly moved along. Next I looked at the HQ choices. Is there anything that I can attach to a Swift Claw biker unit to make them fairly effective in combat & against mech? Yes, there is 1 choice which stands out. Wolf Priests!
Wolf Priests can take bikes for 35pts, have options to some useful wargear, and gives the unit his attatched to some very useful benefits. The first one is Fearless. This stops your low LD bikers from running away from the slightlst loss of life. Psyker Battle squads and the like wont have a chance to stop the advance of your bikers, and your opponent will have to rely on destroying the unit instead.
Next is re-rolls to hit against a unit type of your choice on the charge. Considering Swift Claws are fairly fast, they are very likely to pull of the charge most of the time, so this rule boosts their damage output to fairly effective and reliable levels.
Now lets look at his wargear. He can take a Combi-melta for 10pts, awesome. This gives your unit an extra melta shot when needed, that’s nice. Meltabombs? Cool, every little helps. Now we have an atattched character who gives the unit a boost in combat, against mech, an extra power weapon & makes the unit fearless, all for 150pts? Bargain.
Now I have done the analysis and chosen the approach, how do I put this together? Well Alex gave me a core to build around, which was 3 units of Grey unters (2 large rhino squads and 1 razorback) and a Rune Priest. As he wantesd the army to be based around something different, I decided to do just that. Two large Swift Claw squads with all the timmings with a Wolf Priest attatched to each squad. This was a fair amount of points, so by the time I added his core, there was only a few spare points to add anything extra. I went for a Wolf scout unit just to help pick off those annoying armoured targets hiding in the back harassing your lines.
The list ended up looking like so:
Army List
Wolf Priest: 150pts
Space Marine Bike, Meltabombs, Combi-melta.
Wolf Priest: 155pts
Space Marine Bike, Meltabombs, Combi-melta, Wolf tail talisman (needs to be equipped different).
Rune Priest: 100pts
Living Lightning & Jaws. (Fairly standard loud-out giving him a chance to pop low AV targets from afar or assist in piking out hidden fists or the like which may threaten your Swift Claws).
5 Scouts: 85pts
Meltagun.
4 Wolf Guard: 132pts
2 with Power fists & Combi-Meltas.
2 with Combi-Meltas.
7 Grey Hunters: 160pts
Meltagun, Wolf Banner, Rhino with Dozer blades (rolling 1’s suck).
7 Grey Hunters: 160pts
Meltagun, Wolf Banner, Rhino with Dozer blades (rolling 1’s really sucks).
5 Grey Hunters: 155pts
Meltagun & Razorback with Twin-linked lascannon.
8 Swift Claw Bikers: 325pts
Meltagun, Powefist & additional Attack bike with Multi-Melta. All bikers with meltabombs.
8 Swift Claw Bikers: 325pts
Meltagun, Powefist & additional Attack bike with Multi-Melta. All bikers with meltabombs.
Grand Total: 1747pts
Unit Roles
So how does this army work? Well its not going to be easy. Each bike unit is 10 strong, so deploying them will be fairly difficult. Something to perhaps bare in mind when going second is trying to conga line the bikers to that half of them are covered by the Rhino chassis which should be deployed sideways. You could also put this army in reserve due to the 24 inch turbo boost. Turn 2/3 when the bikers arrive, turbo boost to the middle of the board and start putting pressure on your opponent. If they are fairly combat based this wont be necessary. I would perhaps Turbo boost up first turn if going first, ready to threaten as much as possible by turn 2.
Rhino’s can help assist the advance of the bikers, giving melta support & combat support to overwhelm your opponent. With only 3 Hulls on the board, there is a fairly low amount of saturation, but with fairly defensive deployment or using terrain to your advantage, they should prove to be enough for what you are using them for (rhinos to hit mid-field & razorback to hold home objective / provide fire support).
So what’s wrong with this list? No fire support bar the Lascannon. Its completely Melta & combat reliant. This in its own right isn’t too bad as after all, meltaguns are one of the best anti-tank weapons in the game. 14 Melta weapons on the board (half of which are combi-weapons so one shot only but should still be enough). There’s plenty of meltabombs, putting pressure on your opponent to move their vehicles rather than shooting which is very psychological in its own right (turbo boosting turn one puts your right infront of your opponents lines with a 3+ cover save).
Scouts perform their usual role, come on and harras your opponent to give a further psychological effect to your opponents deployment.
Conclusion
Overall, I’m fairly confident this list can do well. It wont win Tournaments (like that’s ever going to happen, right Alex lol), but will certainly be worth the ride and give something new and different for you & your opponent (who expects bikes?).
Would love to hear all your thoughts on this list, and would you make any further suggestions to help Alex West with his army?
Killswitch
21 comments:
March 3, 2011 at 10:26 AM
Skyclaws do not have the option to be led by a standard wolf guard.
March 3, 2011 at 10:57 AM
I know I was just analysing :)
March 3, 2011 at 11:15 AM
Its a toughie! And good luck to Alex West - he is one of the best all round gamers in the land. He paints very well, loves his fluff and loves his games hard and fast.
While we do get to see a lot of 'same old, same old' lists gracing the gaming table, trying to find something new and exciting is really hard. The bikes may be just different for different's sake tho. Its a lot of points for quite a confused role that does neither particularly well (not 'Tournament well' anyway and you already addressed that!)
Your right mate. Its not easy to break the mould and still come up with the same kind of results.
I am pretty interested in some kind of land raider list that uses Iron priest's with the saga of the iron smith + servitors that could repair said raiders/rhino's/dreadies on a 2+ to keep those points from bleeding away in an event but the problem is retaining your shooting ability and close combat effectiveness. I never thought I'd say it but I wish some things in our codex were cheaper or that we could play larger games to explore new synergies that can only really be taken advantage of in the bigger games.
March 3, 2011 at 11:49 AM
I see your point mike but "confused" role isnt the term I'd use. the bike units are fairly solid in terms of hammer & anvil tactics. they are fairly sturdy after a turbo-boost and very threatning. I would have to say though, they suffer against units such as FNP termies, but thats where multiple melta & Jaws can come in handy.
Its asking for finese play, but i think after a few uses it could be good fund to use. It fulfils a variety of roles, rather than confused, but most of all thy are there to disrupt your opponent. Conga lining those bikes late game is always a great way of contesting a fair few objectives aswell :)
March 3, 2011 at 12:03 PM
O No doubt mate. Any list can be effective in the right hands. Plus I think EVERYTHING suffers from FNP termies! Maybe confused is the wrong word. They do have to used aggressively and at the same time conservatively to mitigate the downsides and exploit the up.
I like the way it is going tho and if anyone is going to be able to bring some fresh new synergies to this book its probably going to be you who spots/exploits and pwns with it!
March 3, 2011 at 1:55 PM
I have been using some bikes here recently but in a slghtlydifferent way. I have a Wolf Lord on Bike and Wolf Priest on Bike. They run togther. With the big movement boost you get with the bikes I can move them to support units scattered on the table. The Wolf Priest is an under used commodity in my opinion. He has been money for me. What thoughts do you have on a Wolf Guard Retinue on Bikes. Expensive but tricked out right could be brutal. That is my next project I want three to see how they do.
Just some thoughts from across the pond.
March 3, 2011 at 2:10 PM
I would say go for it. Would be a great modelling oppurtunity. Will they be cost effective? Certainly not. they just arn't nob bikers. They can't have fnp and they don't have 2 wounds unfortunately.
March 3, 2011 at 2:34 PM
My wolves run a bigish bike pack, and it's a fairly effective hammer, led by a Rune preist with JAws, it can run about and generally tear things up.
the anvil is WG termies in a LR.
throw in some scoring GH in Razors and a Landspeeder and it's pretty effective, if you want boke conversion Ideas, check my blog. the ravenwing box and some wolf bitz goes a long way :)
March 3, 2011 at 4:44 PM
I think this a very good list. The speed of the bikes and the tenasity of the player utilizing would make this list formitable.
I used a simular list in the 2010 'Ard Boyz the only reall difference was the addition of thunderwolves and a unit comprised of Logan Grimnar, Arjac Rockfist, 5 long fangs with Missile Launchers with the pack leader with Power Fist and melta gun, and a Land Raider Redeemer. It was the funnest and cheesiest list I have ever played. The real cheese was using Wolf Guard in every unit so they would count as Troops.
I do miss Bloodclaws from 3rd Ed and 'rhino rush'.
Again, great info and good luck with the army.
March 3, 2011 at 4:52 PM
Interesting army list, though I find it a little light in some areas.
Firstly, I find small lightly equipped scout packs rather an annoying factor, than a real nuissance/threat. Even with a wolfguard, there's not that much effort needed to remove them from the table.
Secondly, the grey hunter packs are also rather light in the anti-armor/cc-field. Remove the wolf guard and suddenly you lack most of your cc-punch.
And the bikers? meltabombs can be great, but i'd rather take a wolfguard on a bike for added flexibility (and more quality pfist-attacks).
Overall, I think too much quality-stuff has been dropped to cram in as many other things as possible.
Still, very refreshing to see some wolfbikers on the field.
March 3, 2011 at 5:01 PM
I dont know, to be honest, i am not completely sold on any of the Fast options for the Wolves.
Thunderwolf cav, they are awesome in combat and incredibly sturdy. But they have to get there, and they are not really much faster than foot slogers.
Bikes are tempting, at the same price of the Vanilla equivalent, they get 1 extra attack at the price of 1ws and also get an additional attack on the charge. So far so good, but they are not lines, and they are very expensive as a unit.
Skyclaws suffer the same as any other non transport jump unit, they go down to small arms fire when not in combat. I think their best use is as a deep striking unit (in our codex).
Fenrisian wolves i do like them, they are fairly cheap (compared to our other options), can be made to have I5, which is really nice, and are as good as a GH in combat. I would use them as screener and disposable units, ill bring them and the saga or neither.
Bottom line, nilla marines make bike armies better.
March 3, 2011 at 5:51 PM
My tactic has been to drop an Arjac Bomb on turn 1 and then turboboost to the unit with the lord and w. priest. Joining up the w. priest grants the squand and Arjac preferred enemy against whatever I have chosen. And you have three invul saves mixed for wound allocation as my lord always has saga of the bear.
The wolf guard on bikes would be more along the lines of shooty with combi weapons for going up an punching armor. They then could act as ablative wounds for the lord, but as you say expensive. Gotta have the right supportive cast for it to work. There not nob biker cool for certain but they can do some damage I think.
March 3, 2011 at 6:31 PM
i use swiftclaw bikers from time to time and find them quite effective vs rather light infanterie (geq).
i do not add multimelter/melter though... both are to expensive for bs3 models. flamers hit automatically and a attack bike with heavy bolter is cheap enough to take it for wound grouping... both weapons are also optimal vs light infanterie. for vehicles you have melterbombs and/or other troops.
and combi weapon on a wolfpriest isnt the best idea i guess... you permanently lose 1 energieweapon attack for a single meltashot per battle - not worth it imho
March 3, 2011 at 6:42 PM
Sky Claws are SOOO cheap though shurly they would be more workable than bikers?
March 3, 2011 at 7:31 PM
The problem is to make them effective you have to have a Wolf priest in there and a full compliment - That an awful lot of points. In some lists it will work a treat, as long as you can mitigate some of the shots that should come their way. But most armies have the ability to take these guys out via shooting or close combat - so its what else you bring to make those decisions hard and therefore you might be getting value for those points.
March 3, 2011 at 8:24 PM
Yes, Skyclaws are delicate for marines. You really have to watch what you are doing.
When I have used skyclaws, I have them behind a land raider. Once the land raider gets close to assaulting range for what is inside, then the skyclaws come to back up.
The Best result I had using this tactic was a Land Raider with an Iron Priest with max Cyberwolves and servitors. That brought enough power weapon wounds and some infinitive to the fight. Then used Skyclaws to assist the that assault phase with taking wounds and dishing them out. If worked well, but I have to say it was point hvy and it took some finesse with other parts of my army to keep that unit rolling.
In the end, Skyclaws are dangerous point sink.
March 3, 2011 at 11:52 PM
I have rarely used Blood Claws in any of their incarnations. Recently I was gives some bikers and thought that I would give them a run. One was armed with a meltagun, but when I came into 6" range, I realised (and was told by my opponent) that I had to forgo shooting to charge. So locked in combat with a BA dread with twin claws saw my squad demolished in one round of combat (a second dread rocked in having just enough movement).
Whats the answer to that? Add a Wolf Priest on a bike? I would really to keep my HQ count to just two. Shoot from a greater distance and hope the shot not only hits put the roll for penetration and damage is high?
?????
March 4, 2011 at 4:54 AM
I'm working on a list that may get a test run tonight which includes two Thunder Lords and a Lord on a bike with a biker pack.
The idea behind it is the herd the enemy into the Thunder Lords with bikers and scouts closing in from the flanks.
I've developed a bit of a bloodthirsty streak just lately so I'm taking lists with lots of "Axe to mouth" instead of my normal army set ups.
I also fancied taking a bit of a break from Rune Priests and Long Fangs for a while.
March 4, 2011 at 4:56 AM
I must admit I use my swiftclaws/skyclaws as (juicy) diversions most of the time.
Juicy because they're accompanied by a wolfpriest (skyclaws) and a wolfguard (sometimes + wolfpriest) for the swiftclaws. I'll happily plunge 'em into the thick of a fight/flank IF it means the rest of my army can "safely" advance.
By taking maxed-out packs, you do invest an (awful) lot of points into "mediocre" units, but it also means your opponent has to invest some more time/effort to eliminate them.
Of course, they do suffer from gunlines etc, but then who doesn't?
So far I've used one (sometimes both) of them in every game I've played and they do me proud each and every time.
I guess the number of dice I can roll with each charge kind of offsets my below average luck.
:-)
March 4, 2011 at 5:51 AM
I use swiftclaws A LOT! I absolutely love them, but don't delude yourself. They are only good at anti-horde.
Take a wolf priest, wolf guard, flamer, heavy bolter, oath of war-infantry and chase light infantry. I have charged into MC's and termies when in desperation and the sheer number of attacks these guys punch out can get you that one or two wounds you need but it's definitely not a reliable tactic.
Remember these guys re-roll their bolter shots, so their actually quite accurate. Add a flamer, maybe one or two combi-flamers, and watch orks, nids, guard etc melt.
But if you try and chase tanks with these guys prepare to be disappointed.
March 4, 2011 at 7:57 AM
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=179025&hl=swiftclaws
Or just ask Littlbitz how he does it :P
- Natanael
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